Curse

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Level is inconsequential, it's all about skills (both as the equipped skills and player skills). 'Level' itself is a completely artificial construct without any real world equivalent and it doesn't have anything to do with common sense.

The entire idea of boss farming (and most solo farming in general) is to beat a vastly more powerful creature through a specific counter build that grants you local invincibility.

I absolutely agree. It is about skill, that was my point. But why give a player an automatic buff because their under lvl20 when they enter GWEN? How does that aid their skill ingame?

If GWs is about skills they shouldnt need the buff. If they player chooses to enter GWEN under lvl20 they and their "skilled" enough to face off against a lvl22 creature, at lvl10, using an amazing skill bar and experience then great.

But if they choose to enter GWEN under lvl20 and aren't "skilled" enough to make a great skill bar and die every 2 minutes then tough. They should have earnt some experience first before entering GWEN.

The automatic buff actually removes this idea and need for skill. Once they get that attribute buff their limited skills become more powerfull anyway and their health may increase. Ity removes the need to take skill or tactics or experience in with them because they are equal to a lvl20 and can kill anything a normal lvl20 can.

If they didnt have that buff and were lvl10 with less powerfull skills and health, then they would have to put alot more thought into their abilities. But Anet has killed that need.

We all know that at lvl20 you can basically steam-role most areas in GWEN or other campaigns. But at lvl10 with non-buffed attributes would take alot more concideration on resources and your limited skill bar. If they survived I would stand up and say "OMG thats a skilled player", but to see a buffed lvl10 player in GWEN doesnt say "skilled" to me.

You all talk about this buff making lvl10 characters on equal footing to lvl20s in GWEN. But why should a lvl10-19 be on equal footing? It makes no sense.

Not to mention when they enter GWEN they instantly get 4 lvl20 heroes very easily within the first 5 minutes. Add that to the buff, and where exactly does skill come into it? They might not even be good at using heroes or have limited skills for those heroes too, but they would still make a huge difference.

Your then giving a lvl10-19 player a walk in the park through high end content with a buff and lvl20 heroes which will probably power level them.

Bottom line; they need to remove the buff and maybe make the heroes the same level as them when they aquire them. Let lvl10s in if they want, but dont hold their hand and make it easy as pie if they choose to fight much harder creatures.

If you were to walk into a really tough area in Oblivion or some other RPG or MMO, would you get an instant buff to make sure you survive or you would get slaughtered? Ofcourse not! You would become the prime target to all the creatures and die within seconds.

So why should it be different here? This is just marketting gone wrong and Anet doing stupid things to keep people playing.

Ashe. · Dec 11, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Game_updates
Its hard enough finding PUGs in GWEN at times, we dont need lvl10-19s trying to join them when we need those spaces filled with max players who will actually be of use.

I personally feel this will just incourage people to use heroes and henches more because they will want to avoid all the now lvl 10s running around.

PUGs...useful? I've never heard such a thing.

trankle · Dec 11, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The entire point of leveling a character to 20 in pve is to get experience and skill in using your attributes as you progress. Ok so it may be slower in prophercies and faster in factions, but there is still a learning curve you need to play through before you can say "im skilled".

GWEN may not be impossibly hard, but the AI is alot tougher at times, especially with the secondary professions on creatures and the destroyers being tough unless you know how to deal them dmg.

Your saying its ok to allow a newbie lvl10 player who has only fought very easy creatures around Lions Arch, to enter the Asura Portal and instantly be made the equilivant of a lvl20?

Where is the experience to be able to put those attributes to full use? Wheres the knowledge of different creatures types and professions they may face off against? Where is the understanding of runs and what weapon is best to use?

Yes it may be the 4th or 9th character a person owns, and they will have experience. But a new player wont! A new player at lvl10 should enter GWEN, get slaughtered and think "hm... maybe I need to get a bit more experience first before trying this".

There are two types of Level 10-19 characters in GW:EN.

First, you have characters on accounts with at least one other Level 20 character. That player will have the experience you're talking about.

Second, you have the characters on accounts with no Level 20's. If these characters go into GW:EN, they will be missing exactly the experience you say they will need to beat the enemies there. So they will either try, fail, and go back to lower level areas, or they will adapt and develop skill. What's not to like?

Any character in GW:EN will be tested on exactly the types of experience you're talking about. They won't be tested on their level.

You have to remember that most of the game's content is for Level 20's. This means that unless you have developed the skills to play on this level, you will fail. Most experienced players will find this funny, as it quickly becomes easy to roll through most PvE, but that's the theory. Being newly Level 20 does not guarantee success in a Level 20 environment. Especially if you haven't yet earned a decent skillset, or any Elites, and have an unchangeable attribute spread.

To put it another way, you say that the game teaches you experience and skill that you will need to succeed in Level 20 content. If this is the case, then simply having a Level 20 buff won't give anyone that skill and experience, and they'll fail.

So, at worst, it allows inexperienced players to see what they need to learn, and at best, it lets experienced players quickly level a new character, to enjoy the game again.

Mordakai · Dec 11, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The automatic buff actually removes this idea and need for skill. Once they get that attribute buff their limited skills become more powerfull anyway and their health may increase. Ity removes the need to take skill or tactics or experience in with them because they are equal to a lvl20 and can kill anything a normal lvl20 can.

Huh? It makes them equal to a level 20. They still need some skill (and getting a balanced group of Heros and Henchies) to survive the hardest areas of GWEN, especially if they have a limited skill set with no Elites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You all talk about this buff making lvl10 characters on equal footing to lvl20s in GWEN. But why should a lvl10-19 be on equal footing? It makes no sense.

Look, every other Guild Wars product has some content for characters under level 20. GWEN did not. Anet decided to change that to try and make the expansion more popular. End of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Not to mention when they enter GWEN they instantly get 4 lvl20 heroes very easily within the first 5 minutes. Add that to the buff, and where exactly does skill come into it? They might not even be good at using heroes or have limited skills for those heroes too, but they would still make a huge difference.

Skill is still in play: you have to make Skill Bars for those Heros! (unless you want to use the half skill bars they are set up with)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Your then giving a lvl10-19 player a walk in the park through high end content with a buff and lvl20 heroes which will probably power level them.

Is it Power leveling if you have to do it yourself? BTW, you only get around 35 xp for each kill. You're treated just like a level 20, so don't expect your level 10 to become level 20 in 30 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Bottom line; they need to remove the buff and maybe make the heroes the same level as them when they aquire them. Let lvl10s in if they want, but dont hold their hand and make it easy as pie if they choose to fight much harder creatures.

Why? All this outrage, and I don't understand how it hurts you. Why do you care now Level 10's have another option than to run through the same beginner area for the upteenth time....

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If you were to walk into a really tough area in Oblivion or some other RPG or MMO, would you get an instant buff to make sure you survive or you would get slaughtered? Ofcourse not! You would become the prime target to all the creatures and die within seconds.

Bad example. Oblivion is scaled to level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So why should it be different here? This is just marketting gone wrong and Anet doing stupid things to keep people playing.

Yep, those stupid people at Anet trying to get people to buy their products.

WTF is wrong with them! They shouldn't let anyone new into the game, so only the Old Guard will remain "elite".

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Look, every other Guild Wars product has some content for characters under level 20. GWEN did not. Anet decided to change that to try and make the expansion more popular. End of story

What content in GWEN is aimed for anyone lvl10-19? None of it is. All creatures are ove lvl20 and intended for players who have completed atleast one campaign and fought creatures up to that point.

Just because they let lvl10s in doesnt mean they have "added low level content" to GWEN.

Bryant Again · Dec 11, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Just because they let lvl10s in doesnt mean they have "added low level content" to GWEN.

But now they can experience it and decide to buy it or not without having to wait an additional 10 levels. This is good.

pkodyssey · Dec 11, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

It does not matter what we think. Anet does what "they" want to.

Start thinking like a business then re-ask the question.

If letting level 10's in sells more copies then, they win and you keep playing for free.

MagmaRed · Dec 11, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

How does this effect you? It doesn't. If you want to PUG, then PUG. If you don't want to PUG with people who aren't level 20, then don't. It isn't like they are entering HA at level 10, with buffs to make them as good as the people level 20. Its PvE, and it only impacts you if you want it to.

And for your information, not all monsters in GW:EN are level 20 or above.
As a starter for you, consider these:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Krait_Neoss

Maybe you will allow level 18 people to play with you now?

Stolen Souls · Dec 11, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

How does this effect you? It doesn't. If you want to PUG, then PUG. If you don't want to PUG with people who aren't level 20, then don't. It isn't like they are entering HA at level 10, with buffs to make them as good as the people level 20. Its PvE, and it only impacts you if you want it to.

And for your information, not all monsters in GW:EN are level 20 or above.
As a starter for you, consider these:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Krait_Neoss

Maybe you will allow level 18 people to play with you now?

^Metamorphosis (monster skill) (levels 18 and 19 only). Creature changes into an adult Krait.

>.>

<.<

XiaoTheBlade · Dec 11, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

How does this effect you? It doesn't. If you want to PUG, then PUG. If you don't want to PUG with people who aren't level 20, then don't. It isn't like they are entering HA at level 10, with buffs to make them as good as the people level 20. Its PvE, and it only impacts you if you want it to.

And for your information, not all monsters in GW:EN are level 20 or above.
As a starter for you, consider these:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Krait_Neoss

Maybe you will allow level 18 people to play with you now?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Rabbit

Sends you into a room filled with creatures less than level 20

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But now they can experience it and decide to buy it or not without having to wait an additional 10 levels. This is good.

That is a great thing, no denying it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

How does this effect you? It doesn't.

Because you no longer need to play atleast one character through one campaign to access GWEN and you no longer needs to be lvl20, we will have even less people playing through earlier campaigns.

Now we will have people being run to LA and other jump off points and heading straight for the asura portal at lvl10.

It was a good thing to have to atleast play one campaign and level up first, because it ensured people still played the earlier games.

zwei2stein · Dec 11, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

It was a good thing to have to atleast play one campaign and level up first, because it ensured people still played the earlier games.

Not really, here is list that your "lowbie" will miss because he did not complete previous campaigns:

* 15 att quests /reqs. at least desert./. Thats huge one.
* mid to late game elites and skills.
* ascension and thus unlocked secondaries.
* various pve-only stuff like ss or kurz skills and appropriate grinded tracks.

L20 is not everything.

arcanemacabre · Dec 11, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

It was a good thing to have to atleast play one campaign and level up first, because it ensured people still played the earlier games.

Which is important because...?

zwei2stein · Dec 11, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Which is important because...?

Well, its not important, but when you feel like you are last one playing the game because there is noone in outposts (and that translates to feeling like you are playing dying/dead game), it discourages from further gameplay in mmos. It feels like you are wasting time (like if playing "lively" moo was not technically waste of time either)

arcanemacabre · Dec 11, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Well, its not important, but when you feel like you are last one playing the game because there is noone in outposts (and that translates to feeling like you are playing dying/dead game), it discourages from further gameplay in mmos. It feels like you are wasting time (like if playing "lively" moo was not technically waste of time either)

Well, first of all, GW is not an MMO, which is also why level is not important, either. Secondly, where would these players go once they have leveled up and done all of GWEN? You don't think they're going to explore further into the other games they purchased? Or are they just going to write off all that content and stay in GWEN?

zamial · Dec 11, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Well,
We just finished doing exactly what you are complaining about. I ran my Girl friend's level 10 warrior from yaks bend to LA. Then we did the quest to get to EotN. We then fought to the umbral grotto and I helped her GRIND to level 5 dwarven. Then we ran into the battle depths, did the mission on my char that has done it before, poof she is in the central transfer chamber and is now sporting female silver eagle ELITE armor. (Which is also displayed in her HoM.) She has never beat any campaign on that character, is now level 20, missing all her bonus attributes and is a better tank than most in pugs. I even gave her max green weapons and shields. I don't even think she has capped an elite skill yet on that character. BTW this all took 2, 8 hour sessions with a lil bit of finishing up.

She still has not finished any campaign, but will some day, on her warrior.

FYI she tanked the end destroyer boss in the battle depths in armor from ascalon, still feel leet and special about your level 20 content?

Aerian_Skybane · Dec 11, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Well,
We just finished doing exactly what you are complaining about. I ran my Girl friend's level 10 warrior from yaks bend to LA. Then we did the quest to get to EotN. We then fought to the umbral grotto and I helped her GRIND to level 5 dwarven. Then we ran into the battle depths, did the mission on my char that has done it before, poof she is in the central transfer chamber and is now sporting female silver eagle ELITE armor. (Which is also displayed in her HoM.) She has never beat any campaign on that character, is now level 20, missing all her bonus attributes and is a better tank than most in pugs. I even gave her max green weapons and shields. I don't even think she has capped an elite skill yet on that character. BTW this all took 2, 8 hour sessions with a lil bit of finishing up.

She still has not finished any campaign, but will some day, on her warrior.

FYI she tanked the end destroyer boss in the battle depths in armor from ascalon, still feel leet and special about your level 20 content?

I have no idea which side of the fence you are on Zamial, but I take it as further proof that IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU LET LOWER LEVELS IN OR GIVE THEM THE BUFF. Anyone can give them perfect weapons/stats/money/time to get the "best" armor in the game. I feel sad for people who care about being "elite" in a game that was intentionally made to be fun in PvE without NEEDING to have the competition observed in the other half of the game, where that is encouraged.

Seriously griefers, its not like they took away your e-peeni/e-enchanced performance, or even more scary, your elite skills or hard worked armors. Then I would give you reason to complain, and I would carry the banner with you or more realistically, go play another game for a while (which I do anyways to keep things fresh). Take a break you fools, you clearly need it if you are spending so much time writing essays on why lower-than-thous shouldn't recieve a skill/attribute-limiting buff / more astutely observed as hex.

MagmaRed · Dec 11, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

That is a great thing, no denying it!

Because you no longer need to play atleast one character through one campaign to access GWEN and you no longer needs to be lvl20, we will have even less people playing through earlier campaigns.

Now we will have people being run to LA and other jump off points and heading straight for the asura portal at lvl10.

It was a good thing to have to atleast play one campaign and level up first, because it ensured people still played the earlier games.

True, nobody pays to get runs to Droks, get powerleveled, and cap the elites in that region. Nobody gets run to LA, warps to Kamadan, gets 4 free heroes with no work, and a 5th with very little work.

I play in all 4 games. Everytime I do, I see other people there, playing. Either you are playing at times when everyone else is asleep, or you are playing in the International districts in cities that nobody uses. I will admit some places have very few people, but all places I go to have SOME people.

All I see you doing in this thread is crying about how people can get things faster than you can. Who cares. Just you.

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Well, first of all, GW is not an MMO, which is also why level is not important, either. Secondly, where would these players go once they have leveled up and done all of GWEN? You don't think they're going to explore further into the other games they purchased? Or are they just going to write off all that content and stay in GWEN?

How is it not a massively multiplay online game?

Its massive, its multiplayer and guess what... its online too! I really love how people try to argue this game isnt an MMO and yet I see no one giving evidence to back that up. Any quotes from Anet stating its something else?

I accept its not an MMO it an original sense, but please dont start the "its not an MMO there for it doesnt matter about level" arguement unless you can back it up.

Either way, even if its an RPG that still DOES mean level is important? the point of an RPG is to create and develop a character through activities!

beanerman_99 · Dec 11, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerian_Skybane

I have no idea which side of the fence you are on Zamial, but I take it as further proof that IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU LET LOWER LEVELS IN OR GIVE THEM THE BUFF. Anyone can give them perfect weapons/stats/money/time to get the "best" armor in the game. I feel sad for people who care about being "elite" in a game that was intentionally made to be fun in PvE without NEEDING to have the competition observed in the other half of the game, where that is encouraged.

Seriously griefers, its not like they took away your e-peeni/e-enchanced performance, or even more scary, your elite skills or hard worked armors. Then I would give you reason to complain, and I would carry the banner with you or more realistically, go play another game for a while (which I do anyways to keep things fresh). Take a break you fools, you clearly need it if you are spending so much time writing essays on why lower-than-thous shouldn't recieve a skill/attribute-limiting buff / more astutely observed as hex.

THIS.

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